How Frumteens Causes Family Problems

Here's a post on Frumteens which gives a taste of the frightening problems that Frumteens can cause:

I also disagree with the moderator in a lot of ways hashkafa-wise. But as a read what he says, it makes more and more sense, and instead of thinking "That's what those frumies think", I now think "That's how I should be thinking". I still don't completely agree with a lot of what he says, mainly because I come from a modern orthodox family, I am starting to see his way as right and my family's way as wrong.

It's great to try to inspire teenagers to a greater level of observance and to more noble hashkafos. But the emphasis on Frumteens is on how other hashkafos are wrong. That's not something to do with teens. It's a recipe for disasters with their families and their teaches.
Turning teens against their families and teachers is a very, very bad way to do kiruv.

Is FrumTeensWatchWatch the FrumTeensMod?

As soon as FrumTeensWatchWatch appeared - that's the blog that describes yours truly as an anti-Semitic rasha - many people suspected that it was the FrumTeens moderator. Who else would be so motivated, and who else classifies everyone in the three categories of good Jews, Zionists, and Lubavitchers? It's either the FrumTeens Mod or a really, really dedicated talmid.

This suspicion was further solidifed by the astonishing fluency that FTWW displayed with all the Frumteens posts. If he isn't the Mod, he's an extraordinary boki.

Even more telling was when he wrote that "if you take a look at those unpublished posts you will find an equal proportion of those who agree, disagree, and are neutral to the Hashkofos of the moderator." Now, it's theoretically possible for anyone to access all posts, but this kind of analysis could only really come from the Mod.

But here was the clincher. When we wrote a few days ago the phrase "FrumteensWatchWatch (a.k.a. Frumteens)," FTWW went wild! He instantly put up a post denying it, and then added to his blog title, "Disclaimer: FrumteensWatch is not associated in any way with Frumteens.com. Neither the Moderators of Frumteens, nor any of its staff are responsible for any content of FrumteensWatchWatch. The opinions expressed here are solely those of this blogger only."

Methinks thou dost protest too much.

Further Deception from Frumteens

In disputes about Frumteens on other forums, many have protested Frumteens’ extreme Satmar ideology. Others have defended Frumteens by saying that everyone has a right to their own ideology and Frumteens happens to be extreme Satmar.

One simple response to be made to this is that just as Frumteens has a right to an extreme Satmar ideology, others have a right to attack this ideology based on their own ideology.

A stronger objection is that Frumteens gives the impression of being a mainstream Orthodox institution, like Aish HaTorah or Project Genesis. The moderator indicates that he is presenting “plain generic Judaism the way it was practiced for centuries.” The subtitle of the website is “Anything you want to know about Judaism but have nobody to ask.” If its subtitle was “Anything you want to know about extreme Satmar perspectives on Judaism but have nobody to ask” it wouldn’t stir up so much opposition. The problem is that it is deceiving innocent teenagers into thinking that extreme Satmar ideology represents mainstream Orthodoxy.

FrumTeensMod - Rabbi or not?

Rabbi Yitzchok Adlerstein, writing about the Moderator of FrumTeems ("M") in Jewish Action Magazine, reported that "M is not a rabbi or mental health professional. His day job is completely unrelated. He regards his role at Frumteens as a teacher, not as a savior for lost souls." Rabbi Adlerstein also writes that M does not live on the East Coast.

Meanwhile the Frumteens moderator himself states on the site that he is a rabbi. It's also in the metadata on the website:

<*title>FrumTeens.com - Torah for Teenagers<*/title*><*META NAME="Description" CONTENT="FrumTeens.com is a Torah discussion board for teens run by Orthodox Jewish Rabbis to teach Hashkafah, to outlook of Judaism on life and living."*><*META NAME="Keywords" CONTENT="Torah, Ask the Rabbi, Jewish Teens, Jewish Teenagers, Hashkafa, Hashkafah, Shabbos, frum"*>

So either the Moderator lied to Jewish Action Magazine or is lying on his site.
As far as I know (and I am willing to be corrected, but my sources are quite reliable), the primary work on Frumteens is done by a single rabbi (not a team of rabbis, as the metadata indicates). The interview in Jewish Action was with a minor partner; Rabbi Adlerstein was apparently unaware of the East Coast rabbi who is primarily responsible for Frumteens.

(Hat tip: Sultan Knish)

Does Anti-Frumteens mean Anti-Semitic?

FrumteensWatchWatch (a.k.a. Frumteens) considers me to be an “anti-Semitic” “rasha” (his words) for my strong criticism of Frumteens. Of course, my opinions are shared by many fine people in the Orthodox community (and even in the yeshivish community), including choshuve rabbonim and mechanchim. Even Rabbi Adlerstein, who wrote an article in Jewish Action praising the work that Frumteens seeks to accomplish with teen issues, has referred to its approach in hashkofic matters as “odious” and “repugnant.” The Frumteens moderator and his supporters must ask themselves, why is it that people who admire and respect Aish HaTorah, Ohr Someyach, Gateways, Partners in Torah, Torah U’Mesorah, etc., etc., have such negative opinions of Frumteens.

Rabbi Adlerstein's Clarification

Rabbi Adlerstein writes the following on Cross-Currents, in reference to his review of FrumTeens in Jewish Action (emphasis added):

I find Frumteens hashkafic pronouncements odious and repugnant. When I interviewed the mysterious Moderator, I told him that I would have to point out in print that our readers myself included reject his views. I made good on that promise.

The mistake which people made (for which I have to take some responsibility) is seeing the article as some sort of endorsement of the Frumteens site, or of Mr. Frumteens. I thought I had made it abundantly clear that the site was valuable in giving parents a glimpse into the world of troubled teens. I continue to believe that many parents are in denial about what is happening in our community, and that hearing first person accounts might give some of them a jump-start into getting more involved. I have no reason to doubt that Frumteens provides a rare window into a little-understood world.

The review did not recommend Frumteens as a place that kids should go. (It really couldnt. The readership of Jewish Action is overwhelmingly Modern Orthodox; Frumteens is geared almost exclusively to the right.) It did explain how the site attempts to help kids, and by the accounts that several of the people in the Jewish Action heard, Frumteens does do much good. I dont see why that should be taken away from it, even if other parts of the same site spew the most contemptible venom.

Click here to read his entire article, and the interesting comments that follow.

FrumTeens: Ramban is Apikorsus!

Here's where the FrumTeens Moderator clarifies his definition of apikorsus, which elsewhere on his website is extraordinarily sweeping, but here is merely very sweeping:

Any pshat you say that you honestly and objectively, without any outside influences or negiyos, derived lishmah from the torah, is, at worst a mistake.
But an idea that you had preconceived, or that you decided based not on torah bu on science or psychology or sme other outside influence, or your own negiyus, or whatever, if that idea is contrary ot the torah, and you try to fit in your outside-the-torah pshat into the torah, you are in essence twisting the otrahs words, NOT deriving things form them; you are trying to make the torah agree with you, NOT you agreeing to the Torah. And so if yuor pshat is correct, youre OK. But if its against the torah, youre not a toeah but a megaleh panim batorah shelo kehalachah. And that is apikorsus.

Well, there goes the Ramban - see his Peirush on Vayikra Perek 12 Possuk 2, where he says that according to Greek philosophy, Chazal's explanation of a possuk is not correct (he notes that the Greek view is also supported by Onkelos, but it's clear that this is only being brought for supplementary support). Ramban might also have been caught out on apikorsus for what he says on Breishis 9 possuk 12, but the Greeks happened to be correct on that one. Lucky break for Ramban there!

Of course, we must ask, what does "contrary to the torah" and "against the torah" mean? According to who? Frumteens doesn't say. Based on his other posts, the answer is probably either the Satmar Rav or the FrumTeens moderator.

Must One be a Baki in FrumTeens to Read It?

Readers may be aware of a new blog, FrumTeensWatchWatch, that attacks the claims of this blog. For example, in our previous post we noted that FrumTeens states that whenever you get pshat wrong in the Torah, it's kefirah. FTWW calls this a "lie" spread by an "anti-religious rasha" (am I a rasha, or just someone who espouses rishus? ;-) ), because in an entirely different post, FrumTeens clarifies that not every wrong pshat is kefirah, just certain types of wrong pshat (more on this nonsense in a forthcoming post).

It's surprising that FTWW isn't aware of the following position expressed on FrumTeens:

the whole idea of defending a book by saying that you have to read it in its entirely or that you have to read it a certain way etc doesnt work, since the typical reader of the book has no way of knowing that unless you read the book in its entirety or in some specific way you will be reading material that is against the Torah

Making such a case against a book is debatable - books are presumably intended to be read properly. But such an argument can certainly be made against a discussion forum on the internet, where a person reading one thread has no way of knowing that there is a different thread that casts a whole different light on the topic.

More Kefirah Wizadry from FrumTeens

How does the FrumTeens moderator arrive at the extraordinary conclusion that you can formally espouse kefirah all of your life, and yet not be a kofer?

The answer is that he takes the astonishing position that whenever somebody learns peshat wrong in the Chumash, it is kefirah! (check it out here)

(His claimed basis for this absurd position is the Mishnah Berurah's statement that Apikorsus is anything that is against Daas Torah. Obviously, however, the Mishnah Berurah was only referring to that which is unanimously held to be the Torah's position, even by the dissenter, who nevertheless disagrees.)

Thus, the Moderator is of the opinion that since Modern Orthodox and Religious Zionist rabbis have learned the wrong peshat in various aspects of Torah, their beliefs are kefirah.

Yet the Moderator obviously can't push it all that far and claim that everyone who learns peshat wrong in any place in Torah is a kofer, since to be a kofer has some very serious consequences.
So he is forced into the bizarre position that somebody can believe and practise kefirah all their life, and yet not be officially called a Kofer!

But obviously, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and talks like a duck, then it is a duck. If somebody is held to be believing and practising kefirah all their life, it is foolish to maintain that they are not kofrim.

However, the real foolishness is in claiming that whenever somebody gets the wrong peshat in Torah, it is kefirah.

Open Discussion?

FrumTeens gives the impression of being an open discussion group, like www.hashkafah.com. However, many people report that when they submitted posts that were contrary to the moderator’s hashkafos and were not easily refutable, the moderator did not permit them to be posted. Thus, the moderator gives the impression of satisfactorily dealing with all questions that arise, but he is actually avoiding objections that undermine his position. If anyone has this experience, please forward your postings to this website.

How To Make Kofrim In One Easy Step

The FrumTeens Moderator defines apikorsus as follows:

Apikorsus is simply anything that is against Daas Torah.

The Moderator believes that he is presenting the position of the Mishnah Berurah. It's true that, technically speaking, this is what the Mishnah Berurah says. However the question is what does Daas Torah mean. According to FrumTeens, everyone who has a different hashkafah than that which he considers correct from a Torah standpoint is therefore going against the Torah and is practising apikorsus. This is an extraordinarily sweeping usage of the Mishnah Berurah which can be used to dismiss virtually anything as apikorsus.

Kefirah Clarification

It has been pointed out that the FrumTeens moderator does not state that Religious Zionists and the Modern Orthodox are Kofrim (in fact he believes that they are not kofrim), merely that they formally follow hashkofos that are kefirah. But how can a person espouse and practise kefirah all their lives and yet not be a kofer? Regardless, those who somehow make this distinction should read titles of "kofer" on this blog as shorthand for "espousers of kefirah." Someone who believes in Republican policies and implements them in his life can be described as a Republican even if he isn't a registered voter.

Denouncing Religious Zionists and Modern Orthodox

According to Frumteens, it is a very big crime to refuse to denounce Religious Zionists and the Modern Orthodox as kofrim. It’s worse than refusing to denounce someone that you know to be a child molester:

It is a very big crime, according to the Torah, to be unwilling to call Kofrim "Kofrim".
…As careful as you have to be before you accuse someone of Apikorsus, you have to equally, and even more careful, not to think that what is Apikorsus is not.
An Apikores is like a child molestor in that regard. Before you accuse someone of being one you better know what youre talking about. But if you know someone is one, and you tell people he's not, thats even worse.

Religious Zionists and the Modern Orthodox: Worse than Child Molesters?

The FrumTeens moderator explains why people such as religious Zionists (and anyone else who are Kofrim, such the Modern Orthodox) are worse than child molesters:

Imagine, please, if we were talking here about child molesters. And imagine if there was some group of people - Jews, in our imaginary case - who as a matter of policy, preach and believe that it is a good thing to molest children.
And let us imagine that they practice what they preach.
And let us imagine that they have ruined the lives of countless innocent children.
And then, when someone says that this group of people are child molesters, you come and say "how can you call your brothers child molesters? Don’t you care about Jews? Aren’t you dividing up Klall Yisroel?? You’re not being areivim for them!"
Well, Apikorsus is even a worse aveirah than giluy arayos, and "godol hmachtio yoser min hahorgo".

So, according to the FrumTeens moderator:

1) Religious Zionists are kofrim;

2) Modern Orthodox are Kofrim;

3) Kofrim are worse than child molesters;

4) And thus, Religious Zionists and the Modern Orthodox are worse than child molesters.

FrumTeens: The Modern Orthodox are Heretics

The FrumTeens moderator has a very broad definition of heresy:

Kefirah, apikursus, meenus - the words are interchangeable - is anything you believe that is against the Daas Torah

He then determines that Modern Orthodoxy formally desires to "run away" from holiness, something which would doubtless come as great surprise to the leaders of Modern Orthodoxy:

… Modern Orthodoxy disagreed with the Torah's values, or, more properly, twisted the Torah's values, to make batalah and running away from holiness part of Orthodoxy as opposed to a violation of it.

The FrumTeens moderator's conclusion is that Modern Orthodox Jews are bona fide apikorsim:

… To sin is to be imperfect. But to institutionalize imperfection and make it into the first choice is kefirah, since you are disagreeing with the Torah’s values.

Well! What a sweeping definition of kefirah! Now it's not just the Religious Zionists; the FrumTeens moderator has just written off further thousands of Torah observant Jews as genuine apikorsim. And this is the website that hundreds of confused teenagers turn to for guidance!

FrumTeens: Religious Zionists are Idolators

Many Orthodox Jews are not Zionists. Some are even anti-Zionist. But the FrumTeens moderator goes even further, and teaches teenagers that Zionism - even religious Zionism - is idolatry:

Avodah Zorah is when you treat Judaism - in this case, the Jewish nation - as if it were a political-nationalistic entity, like America is. The Jewish nation not a nation like America is. The Jewish nation is a nation based on religious parameters, not national ones. What makes a secular nation into a nation is let’s say common land, common language, common politics, etc. The Jewish "nation", however is not a nation in that sense. We are a nation because we have a common Torah. Period. The idea that a land or a language or politics makes us more of a nation, or worse, that is even part of what defines us as a nation, is Avodah Zorah.

While it might be argued that Torah is the primary ingredient in our nationhood, one need only read the Chumash to see that it is certainly not the only factor. After all, we were a nation even before we were given the Torah. God's covenant with Avraham was that his descendants would receive the Land of Israel. And Hebrew is certainly part of what defines us as a nation, just as the seventy languages are all innately related to the seventy nations. But according to the FrumTeens moderator, to possess such views is not merely wrong - it is idolatrous.

The FrumTeens moderator proceeds to clarify whether possessing an Israeli flag makes you an idol-worshipper, using the most extraodinarily obscene analogy:

…Possessing an Israeli flag doesn’t make you an idol worshipper any more than possessing a Hamas flag makes you a suicide bomber. But hanging an Israeli flag in your room means you relate to the Zionism, which is idolatry, in a manner similar to that which someone who hangs a Hamas flag in his room relates to terrorism, which is murder.

It should be understood that the FrumTeens moderator is not using inflated rhetoric. He truly means that religious Zionists are classified as idolators with all the halachic consequences. We shall discuss this in a future post.