Monday, May 02, 2005

FrumTeens: Religious Zionists are Idolators

Many Orthodox Jews are not Zionists. Some are even anti-Zionist. But the FrumTeens moderator goes even further, and teaches teenagers that Zionism - even religious Zionism - is idolatry:

Avodah Zorah is when you treat Judaism - in this case, the Jewish nation - as if it were a political-nationalistic entity, like America is. The Jewish nation not a nation like America is. The Jewish nation is a nation based on religious parameters, not national ones. What makes a secular nation into a nation is let’s say common land, common language, common politics, etc. The Jewish "nation", however is not a nation in that sense. We are a nation because we have a common Torah. Period. The idea that a land or a language or politics makes us more of a nation, or worse, that is even part of what defines us as a nation, is Avodah Zorah.

While it might be argued that Torah is the primary ingredient in our nationhood, one need only read the Chumash to see that it is certainly not the only factor. After all, we were a nation even before we were given the Torah. God's covenant with Avraham was that his descendants would receive the Land of Israel. And Hebrew is certainly part of what defines us as a nation, just as the seventy languages are all innately related to the seventy nations. But according to the FrumTeens moderator, to possess such views is not merely wrong - it is idolatrous.

The FrumTeens moderator proceeds to clarify whether possessing an Israeli flag makes you an idol-worshipper, using the most extraodinarily obscene analogy:

…Possessing an Israeli flag doesn’t make you an idol worshipper any more than possessing a Hamas flag makes you a suicide bomber. But hanging an Israeli flag in your room means you relate to the Zionism, which is idolatry, in a manner similar to that which someone who hangs a Hamas flag in his room relates to terrorism, which is murder.

It should be understood that the FrumTeens moderator is not using inflated rhetoric. He truly means that religious Zionists are classified as idolators with all the halachic consequences. We shall discuss this in a future post.


At 3:52 AM, Blogger Steg (dos iz nit der šteg) said...

I have a question... when you talk about religious Zionists and Frumteens's view of them, are you and/or the Frumteens Moderator talking about Zionists (of any type) who are also Religious, or specifically people who adhere to Religious-Zionist ideology?

So for instance, would a Religious Jew who is also a Cultural Zionist count as an idolator to the FM?

At 7:16 AM, Anonymous daat y said...

and this fellow says he's not satmar ideology.and this is what R' Adlerstein wrote is helpful.
very sad for clal yisroel.

At 9:16 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

i hope you get around to covering his position on women and tsb"p, which is that women can't even learn ON THEIR OWN (not just that they can't be taught). A position he invented out of wholecloth and tries to contort himself into defending. He actually writes that in the past, women received s'char for learning on their own as eyno m'tzuveh v'oseh, but even if they learn entirely on their own do not receive s'char today because there is (in his view) no longer a heter for a man to teach them. A completely illogical position and he either knows he is fudging it and making stuff up or he is completely krum.

At 5:33 PM, Anonymous MNR said...

I think that the idea behind this blog is great. Just a word of advice: the frumteens moderator is extremely knowledgable. If you are going to rebut his arguments, you are going to have to have to do so agressively and skillfully. I am not sure you have done that as of yet, but best of luck in the future with this noble task.

At 7:22 PM, Anonymous Justice said...

mnr: there are some people in this world who are extremely knowledgeable, yet clearly wrong. Just because you can look up a halacha or even learn a tough sugya int he gemarah doesnt make you correct. And the very fact that the FM relies on his heavily arguments (which in fact arent arguments at all, as he refuses to post anything which he cant refute) implies that he doesnt have good enough facts, but rather needs to fluff it up with junk.

At 2:54 AM, Blogger MakingItRight said...

Are you joking ??

I'm not sure if your aware of this but it was the chazon ish who called religious zionism religious avodah zorah.

Maybe you should take your problems up with the chazon ish.

you reallly seem bored

At 3:14 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Everything depends on the times and curcamstances... Besides the fact that just because the Chazzon Ish said it doesnt make it halacha! There are others...

At 5:26 PM, Blogger Frumteens Review said...

At 2:50 AM, Blogger Yoseph Leib said...

it does mean that there's a mekor for calling religious zionism idolotry.

I maintain that the main problem in all orthodox judaisms, and the tanach for that matter, is the degree to which we feel like the war against avodah zara was successful, that burning and hitting, even if only through words, is an effective means of social purification, and entire valid/holy.

At 7:00 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

At 10:42 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

First of all, it was R. Elchanan Wasserman who said that religious zionism is religious avodah Zarah.

Second the chazon ish never said anything of the sort. People also say that he said those who celebrate yom haatzmaut are apikorsim. This statement was taken out of context. The Chazon Ish said those who shave and get a haircut on yom haatzmaut for political reasons were apikorsim for violating sfira unless they followed a halachik ruling of a rav that permitted one to shave.

At 6:05 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Avodah Zorah And the moderator
There may be a more serious problem here.
When a non-religeous person violates a capital edict, we handle under the terms of "being brought up by non-jews", and so we are justified in being careful not to explicitly set up any of the pre-requisites required for formal conviction.

The moderator asserts that he cannot be in this category. He claims that he is a naamon.
Yet he accuses others in the same category of a capital crime.

We must persuade him to deal with this in a way that does not put him in such a dangerous position.

let me be quite clear.
So respond to this using anonymous only. Aidim cannot be anonymous.

I am a follower of the Chofetz Chaim and hope that we can do this in away that he would approve.

At 3:59 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

What are you people talking about the person 2 up from me the statement of the Chazon Ish was not taking out of context at all!

I qoute you in Sefer Maaseh Ish Volume 1. page 172 on the top.

"Who is a apikorus that is shomer mitzvot (afrumer apikores)in our times? Anyone who claims that it was because of the Gedolei Yisroel that 6 million jews died in europe, and one who celebrates Yom Haaztmaut."

The qoute is befierush in the sefer and it has the haskama of Harav HaGaon Chaim Kanievsky shlita.

Why dont you look up all the sources before you let out youre baseless feelings. Everything on frumteens u can check up. it 100 percent emet.


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